Curse

The Acolyte · Nov 16, 2005, 06:03 PM // 18:03

I have some notes and was hoping for feedback regarding game play and the recent update (not to gripe, purely constructive feedback). FYI, I almost always play an ele and I LOVE the aggro update.

That being said, there is something I have noticed related to AI, or just plain ole intelligence realism compared to PvP play. My primary recommendation is that AoE's land with the probability of realization. What I mean is this. When you play PvP, you find that people are affected by AoEs based on how attuned they are to what is going on around them. When you send out an AoE, it usually lands 2-3 times, sometimes 3-4 (rarely do people sit through the whole thing though) before causing a reaction. This is due to a few reasons dealing with the mechanics of the mind: focus on current actions causing blindness to other actions, processing time to make a strategic decision (where to go), and actual action on pre-planned movements to the given situation. One recommendation is a calculation via probability that the enemy will stay within the AoE field for 1+n hits (where N is the outcome of the probability equation). Of course, the higher the level, the lower the probability that the enemy will sit through an AoE, thus reducing n. Also, one thing that is HIGHLY unrealistic is how the enemies scatter. I find that casters tend to come closer to the party when aggroed for instance. In PvP play, the casters back out of the aggro circle and then come back to nuke, but on the edge of the aggro circle to ensure max distance. This of course would make the game a little more difficult, but it would still be more realistic.

Anyway, aside of the above, I again love the AoE adjustment. I always thought it was lame that AoE's would land the whole time (though I have to admit that farming is more difficult post-patch hehehehe).

The second issue I've noticed in-game is that the economic system is pretty messed up. I don't mean player to player, though it does effect player to player economics. What I've noticed is that the cost to create rare materials is actually MORE expensive than the cost of buying pre-made materials. Macro/micro economics ALWAYS works the other way around. One example is linen. It costs 200gp to make, not including the wood that's needed. Yet it costs 190 to buy from a rare materialist. This kills linen as a good sellable item for the most part for player to player economics. Parchment is exactly the opposite, which is why it sells so well in the various towns. You will see the same economics apply to many of the rare materials, including steel, charcoal (really don't understand that one), etc. I have opened up almost the entire map, I have done a TON of research to see if I'm missing a rare crafter that can make these items for cheaper, and I'm just not seeing the justification for these economics...it truly counters real life scenarios (I'm a snr. program manager for a major Internet company, so I'm well versed in this). The end product cost cannot be less than the overall cost of the materials it took to make the product. Anyway, adjusting these prices correctly so that they waterfall as in real life would reward those that are taking the time to collect their materials as well as taking the time to run the materials for crafting rare materials. This in turn inspires the player to player economy, since they become profitibile by capitalizing on players who want the materials asap (and do not necessarily want to pay the amount the rare materialist is charging). This will inspire the economy and balance the system correctly in my opinion. Also, an exotic and specific trading area would be great, which could be accessed by newer and older players alike, to inspire players to present all items together in one area. I know there are many occasions where I wish I could see more than what is being presented. One drastic recommendation would be to only allow trading in this type of zone, but I'm not even sold on that prospect necessarily.

One last recommendation would be the ability for the leader of the party to select map district, as opposed to having to rezone. I'm not sure why this wasn't done, but it is highly annoying to have to zone and rezone to hit other player pools.

Feel free to throw feedback at this; I would love to see some better improvements to the three areas listed above: AI, economy, and party zoning abilities.

Thanks!

Acolyte Devathi

Tactical-Dillusions · Nov 16, 2005, 06:16 PM // 18:16

When in PvP, i pray for that firestorm to drop so i can throw up a storm chaser and reap the energy.
With regard to PvE, i'm sure Anet are still working on things (AI).

Rare material crafters are a great idea and i too wish that they had better prices. It's just not worth the effort to craft materials and sell them to players or other merchants.
I suppose it's to stop people exploiting it.
I remember one particular update that got screwed up slightly...

Someone noticed that you could craft steel really cheaply and sell it to the rare materials guy. Several people maxed out their characters with gold (1.3 million) before the flaw was fixed.
The current system stops people making too much "money for nothing".

The rezoning idea you mentioned is good.

The Acolyte · Nov 16, 2005, 06:23 PM // 18:23

Totally agree with you on the "money for nothing" comment. However, it doesn't make sense that they would even bother keeping a materialist around that makes something like linen, when the cost to make linen via a materialist is more expensive than buying linen from a rare matierialist. At the very least, it should be a one to one ratio (cost of crafting is the same as cost of buying). However, this equation doesn't factor in time to craft, which again kills the incentive to craft.

I don't think the economics should be setup in a way that you can play the sytem against itself, but that's a pretty simple issue to resolve. Basically, you set the sale price at a rare-crafter at approx (as an examlpe) 2x the cost of crafting, but you set the buyback price of the rare materials at what the cost is to make the item (cost of materials and gp to make).

This would greatly balance this issue and setup incentives for in game material trading and crafting.

Acolyte Devathi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tactical-Dillusions

When in PvP, i pray for that firestorm to drop so i can throw up a storm chaser and reap the energy.
With regard to PvE, i'm sure Anet are still working on things (AI).

Rare material crafters are a great idea and i too wish that they had better prices. It's just not worth the effort to craft materials and sell them to players or other merchants.
I suppose it's to stop people exploiting it.
I remember one particular update that got screwed up slightly...

Someone noticed that you could craft steel really cheaply and sell it to the rare materials guy. Several people maxed out their characters with gold (1.3 million) before the flaw was fixed.
The current system stops people making too much "money for nothing".

The rezoning idea you mentioned is good.

Symeon · Nov 16, 2005, 06:31 PM // 18:31

/agree generally with the ideas

The Acolyte · Nov 16, 2005, 06:40 PM // 18:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Symeon

/agree generally with the ideas

Thanks King...I appreciate it.

I just read a cool post about an auction market that kind of speaks to my Market idea above. I'm not sure I agree with an auction necessarily, but the idea of having one place where everyone can put their items up for sale is cool. Having a board that you can post items for sale to, where the buyers can easily browse and find the best price, would be easier to implement and easier to use (selling and buying). It also will show what the market looks like regarding the items you're selling...

Acolyte Devathi

Sluggs · Nov 16, 2005, 07:15 PM // 19:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Acolyte

The second issue I've noticed in-game is that the economic system is pretty messed up. I don't mean player to player, though it does effect player to player economics. What I've noticed is that the cost to create rare materials is actually MORE expensive than the cost of buying pre-made materials.

What you haven't noticed is you are not buying any materials you are trading them player to player using the NPC material traders as a convinient intermediary. Every bolt of linen you buy from the trader for say 190g was sold to him by some other player for 90g.

In GW it is cheaper to recycle scrap than it is to create new material, your only valid complaint would be that GW contains too much scrap to be recycled.

Parchment is exceptional because the supply of scrap from which it can be recycled is much more limited.

The Acolyte · Nov 16, 2005, 08:27 PM // 20:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sluggs

What you haven't noticed is you are not buying any materials you are trading them player to player using the NPC material traders as a convinient intermediary. Every bolt of linen you buy from the trader for say 190g was sold to him by some other player for 90g.

In GW it is cheaper to recycle scrap than it is to create new material, your only valid complaint would be that GW contains too much scrap to be recycled.

Parchment is exceptional because the supply of scrap from which it can be recycled is much more limited.

So this is exactly what I am talking about. This doesn't make sense. The parchment example seems to be working as designed, but how is it possible that people are selling items like charcoal to an NPC trader for LESS than the cost to make that item. I know there are some ignorant people out there, but I HIGHLY doubt that people are running out and making charcoal just to sell it back to an NPC for significant loss in profit (this includes steel ingots, which sell for significantly less than the cost to make between charcoal, gp, and iron ingots).

Are you sure that the rare materialists only sell items that have been sold to them?? I'm not sure I buy this...the rune trader without a doubt runs out of runes, but I've never seen this issue occur with rare materialists. Also, I've farmed steel ingots and the rate of return on farming them could in now way be the primary reason the price at the rare materialist is so low. I not sure I buy your statement. I'm not saying it isn't right, but it doesn't pass the smell test in my opinion...

Acolyte Devathi

Sluggs · Nov 16, 2005, 09:13 PM // 21:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Acolyte

So this is exactly what I am talking about. This doesn't make sense. The parchment example seems to be working as designed, but how is it possible that people are selling items like charcoal to an NPC trader for LESS than the cost to make that item. I know there are some ignorant people out there, but I HIGHLY doubt that people are running out and making charcoal just to sell it back to an NPC for significant loss in profit (this includes steel ingots, which sell for significantly less than the cost to make between charcoal, gp, and iron ingots).

Charcoal is dropped by fire imps and occasionally salvaged from glowing hearts (or whatever the body part dropped by fire imps is called). Some players farm fire imps for the charcoal. Steel is frequently salvaged from monster dropped weapons.

And yes the Materials Traders only trade that is why they are called traders not merchants. Their prices are determined by supply and demand. It is not surprising their prices settle around the cost of crafting. If they ever significantly exceed the cost of crafting then players craft reducing demand and causing trader prices to fall.

Raiddinn Beatdropper · Nov 16, 2005, 09:38 PM // 21:38

There is also a really strange phenomenon at play that nobody has mentioned that I have seen completely devastate the economies of other online games.

Namely the "its worth less to me than it used to be" theory, AKA the "I need money now" theory.

What this basically states is that player A can buy an item now for 1000 G, and he will use it now. As time goes by, Player A may come to realize that he needs another item.

Pretend Player A is offered a great deal on a new weapon, 50,000 G for some green Uber Axe of Death, and he is just a tad short. Player A looks at his 1000 G Awful Axe of Worthlessness and says he will not need it anymore if he can shell out the cash for the UAD.

The deal will only stay as long as player B has the UAD, player B may not have the item forever at this extremely low price, so player A decides to try and offload the item he bought for 1000 for 300-500g to get the money quickly and snap up the deal before someone else does, good now he has the UAD and he is all happy and everything is fine with the world.

BUT, the Awful Axe of Worthlessness that costed 800 G to craft, and he bought for 1000G (seller got a small profit), was just purchased for, say, 300G on the open market.

That would be all fine, and the buyer got a huge deal on it, but thats not really how things work.

People hear stuff, that guy is going to tell all his friends he got it for 300, and they are going to tell all their friends, and any time someone asks what the price is for that item they will say "my buddy just got that for 300 yesterday!" and next thing you know, 300 is now the market value of that item.

The effect is amplified if someone makes like 20 of them, and all of a sudden the guy needs 6000 G, and sells them all at 300 a piece to get rid of them quick, and now the process happens 20 times as fast.

Also something that will make this happen much faster is if the crafted item is basically a tide-over item until you get a much better rare item. If the game upgrades you, then you may just want to be rid of the old item quickly to store new stuff, say goodbye to the cost of that item.

----

Also, Sluggs is right, the reason charcoal is sold so cheaply on traders is because it is a dropped item.

Worthless Player

The Acolyte · Nov 17, 2005, 07:30 PM // 19:30

Here's my problem with the system as Slugg has discussed, and why the economy is negatively impacted by it. The NPCs buy the items back at a cost significantly less than crafting. I understand why farming would make the rare item worth less, but does it make sense to allow the economics behind farming to exceed the usefulness of crafters?

I guess an underlying theme that is starting to come out of this is the inability to actually craft something that is unique, thus letting the players solely own the price of crafted materials based on the time it takes to make them, the cost of crafting, and the cost of materials needed (either in gp or in time). If rarely crafted materials can be easily farmed, then get rid of the rare crafters all together and drive the market through farming as seems to be the case in many situations today. Otherwise, the crafter of rare materials is pointless and should just be removed from the game.

One interesting rare material in the game I've found are sapphires (actually two, ruby's as well). The prices have been going up and up via the trader. You can't make one, and they are very rare drops as well. THAT is how the economics should work. I think one improvement would be to adjust the cost vs. ROI distribution, since actually crafting should cost less than farming for rare material. It's supposed to be rare, so if it's that easy to farm then it really isn't rare.

I don't have a problem making money off of the system currtently, so that isn't a motivator for this discussion. What I would like to see is a more effective crafting element to this game where the primary way to get the end product is through crafting (which can help drive the economics within the game). I would also like to see farming value remain as farming specific value; the only way to get the product is to farm. And last I would like to see the two of these specific trades work together, so that an end product can only be created by 1) taking the time to craft and 2) taking the time to farm to 3) create a unique item that can only be created this way.

I personally dislike the NPC trader system because it deflates the value of many current items too quickly and for too long; also because the sale prices relative to the purchase price are ridculous. The auction proposel I've seen will help with this, but only if the npc traders went away entirely. Also, this would do nothing to help with the artisan situation of GW, nor the overall economy.

Acolyte Devathi

Sluggs · Nov 18, 2005, 02:13 AM // 02:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Acolyte

Here's my problem with the system as Slugg has discussed, and why the economy is negatively impacted by it. The NPCs buy the items back at a cost significantly less than crafting. I understand why farming would make the rare item worth less, but does it make sense to allow the economics behind farming to exceed the usefulness of crafters?

No it doesn't make that much sense, in the real world the crafters with no trade would go bust, in GW they don't. Maybe crafter prices should reflect how busy they are. Like many things in GW there is room for improvment but I don't think improving crafters comes high on the list of things to do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Acolyte

Otherwise, the crafter of rare materials is pointless and should just be removed from the game.

Crafting steel has always been pointless, leather has hardly ever been worth crafting, silk has so few uses. Linen used to be worth crafting but quite recently very efficient ways of 'farming' linen were discovered which is why it is currently dirt cheap. There are other rare materials used in 15k and FoW armor which can only be crafted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Acolyte

One interesting rare material in the game I've found are sapphires (actually two, ruby's as well). The prices have been going up and up via the trader. You can't make one, and they are very rare drops as well. THAT is how the economics should work.

That is quite amusing as there is no use for Rubies and Saphires in the game. Any value they have is based purely on player speculation that they will have a use in the future. The trader prices for Rubies and Saphires have acutally been all over the place.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Acolyte

I personally dislike the NPC trader system because it deflates the value of many current items too quickly and for too long; also because the sale prices relative to the purchase price are ridculous.

Personally I love the NPC Trader system. It doesn't delflate anything just avoids artificially inflated prices caused by direct player-player trading being so hit and miss, time and inventory space consuming. The NPC traders have had several problems in the past. They are supposed to work on a 25% mark up but since the last patch appear to work on 25% and a minimum 100g mark up which pretty excessive for the cheaper crafting materials. I would rather Anet did something about that (making it a 100g minimum per 'order' not per 'item' would be ok) than worrying about unemployed crafters.

KelvinC · Nov 18, 2005, 02:36 AM // 02:36

I like the ability of zoning without explicitly go out and go in.

At the Tomb zoning isn't possible due to the fact most players are PvP and they cannot access Dragon lair.

oOWakleonOo · Nov 18, 2005, 02:43 AM // 02:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tactical-Dillusions

When in PvP, i pray for that firestorm to drop so i can throw up a storm chaser and reap the energy.
With regard to PvE, i'm sure Anet are still working on things (AI).

I Agree with Anets decission on upgrading the AI, but i think they went about it the wrong way. PvP and PvE are two entirely different animals and in my opinion Anet is trying to make them very close, which is a good thing. But me, being a nuker find it very iratating that my build is no longer functional. There have been a couple of time were I have been able to nuke because the stupid monsters got conered. Anyways, I think that Anet should make the AI a mild learning AI. For example, I use Fire Storm. The monster's don't move the first time, but if i use it again, they scater after the third or fourth "drop" and the reaction time decreases everytime i use a skill. The same could be applied to Fireball, the second time i use it the monsters get further apart. But different monster group would have a "blank" AI, and they would have to learn over again. This way you can deal tons of damage at first but if the battle is prolonged you're fighting a smarter foe. I think that this idea even relates PvP and PvE more than how it is now, and it would increase tha startegy even more without eleminating ceratin builds.

twicky_kid · Nov 18, 2005, 05:25 AM // 05:25

the material crafters were put there to work with anets "planned" econemy. that got blown to bits by the invinsimonks. they aren't hurting anything so why remove them? also encourages more player to player trades instead of buying that common material in bulk in old ascalon and then crafting to sell to merchants. if crafters were cheaper than the merchants they would become obsolete and vice versa.

Aeon_Xin · Nov 18, 2005, 06:05 AM // 06:05

The AI I've noticed for AoE will sometimes run right away, some will stick 2-3 and some sill be there for 4-6. The occasional non aggro will sit through the whole thing.

Aside from the nonaggro, that pretty much seems in line with how PvP works.
Some stay a second, some move instantly, some, who think they're about to get the kill might just hang out through it.

I agree on the economics in so far as red dye cost, plus blue dye cost should = purple dye cost, or slightly under cut it for production costs.
There is no need to have a purple, orange, and green dyes. Removing them would create a more realistic gold sink in red and blue dyes. Purple is actually quite popular from what I've seen...

I swear, someday if I get really angry, i'm going to invest a few hundred dollars into ebay money, then buy every single rune and dye that I can from vendors, and other players then delete the items.
I'm not really, cause I don't have that much money to be tossing around, but if I ever win the lottery, better look out.

Rather than having the leader select a district, I think a whole list of districts with a check box would be more appropriate, and there's no auto select.
Force you to think about it before clicking ok, you know, like elctroshock therapy.(I worked on rubber roofing a long time ago, we had these metal rods that held it down on the edges. Walk acrost the roof at the end of the day, shuffling tired feet, bend down to pick one up, ZAP. Anyways, shock therapy works. After a while, I was bruising my hands smacking the rod before I picked it up...)

The Acolyte · Nov 18, 2005, 02:37 PM // 14:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sluggs

No it doesn't make that much sense, in the real world the crafters with no trade would go bust, in GW they don't. Maybe crafter prices should reflect how busy they are. Like many things in GW there is room for improvment but I don't think improving crafters comes high on the list of things to do.

You're assumption here is that people don't collect either. If you don't craft, you're not a crafter. How is it possible for a crafter to have no trade?? That's like saying there are a doctors don't have a line of work. This statement makes no sense.

Essentially, those that want to take the time to craft will be rewarded based on a well balanced economy. That's the point I've been driving on this part of the discussion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sluggs

Crafting steel has always been pointless, leather has hardly ever been worth crafting, silk has so few uses. Linen used to be worth crafting but quite recently very efficient ways of 'farming' linen were discovered which is why it is currently dirt cheap. There are other rare materials used in 15k and FoW armor which can only be crafted.

EXACTLY...how many times do I need to say the whole system needs to be re-evaluated. There are too many items that have no purpose. This is the first MMORPG that I've played where items were created without a purpose. Other MMORPG's create items due to purpose. Now that purpose may be very hard to understand or rare as far as knowledge on usefullness, but the item serves the community none-the-less. And as far as you're comment on rare materials used in 15k, there aren't many items that are craft only and many of the ones that are still have too low of a price at the NPC trader.

Please give me examples and I will research these other rare crafting materials to legitimize your claim...I am definitely interested.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sluggs

That is quite amusing as there is no use for Rubies and Saphires in the game. Any value they have is based purely on player speculation that they will have a use in the future. The trader prices for Rubies and Saphires have acutally been all over the place.

Totally agree...two paragraphs up I discuss this as well. I'm not sure why the prices have been going up, as I haven't seen any useful purpose for these. What's interesting is that as I was discussing the saphire/ruby situation with other people there seems to be general consensus that Anet is working to develop a purpose for them. Again, as stated above, kind of backwards, but if that leak is true then I can understand why the price is going up. I don't have many rubies or saphires, and I've been on a LOT of FoW and UW excursions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sluggs

Personally I love the NPC Trader system. It doesn't delflate anything just avoids artificially inflated prices caused by direct player-player trading being so hit and miss, time and inventory space consuming. The NPC traders have had several problems in the past. They are supposed to work on a 25% mark up but since the last patch appear to work on 25% and a minimum 100g mark up which pretty excessive for the cheaper crafting materials. I would rather Anet did something about that (making it a 100g minimum per 'order' not per 'item' would be ok) than worrying about unemployed crafters.

I guess this is where we'll have to agree to disagree. I think prices SHOULD fluctuate based on current demand as well as current pricing. The NPC trader system just isn't that dynamic. Maybe if Anet presented volumes for availability of the item I would buy into it more, but I just don't trust the way it's being computed currently, and see WAY too big of a dip in value for materials that are supposed to be "rare"

Acolyte Devathi

The Acolyte · Nov 18, 2005, 02:50 PM // 14:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

the material crafters were put there to work with anets "planned" econemy. that got blown to bits by the invinsimonks. they aren't hurting anything so why remove them? also encourages more player to player trades instead of buying that common material in bulk in old ascalon and then crafting to sell to merchants. if crafters were cheaper than the merchants they would become obsolete and vice versa.

Definitely agree on the super monk (this is just one example of three class combinations that are relatively unbalance though...don't want to discuss this in this thread though

)

I can see where you are going with the "not hurting anything so just leave them" theory. However, my point is to develop a more robust economy, and supply and demand contribute to it. My point is to either adjust the farming ability to collect rare materials, or adjust the ability to craft them. The current system shows that there was a lot of waste going into programming for items and abilities to craft items that are really just a waste. Yes, there are some ignorant people that are new to the game that don't know any better and therefore use the rare crafter, but later in the game they'll make a switch (permantely at this point) since they'll recognize the stupidity of using a rare crafter for MOST rare crafting.

Acolyte Devathi

The Acolyte · Nov 18, 2005, 02:57 PM // 14:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aeon_Xin

The AI I've noticed for AoE will sometimes run right away, some will stick 2-3 and some sill be there for 4-6. The occasional non aggro will sit through the whole thing......

Rather than having the leader select a district, I think a whole list of districts with a check box would be more appropriate, and there's no auto select.
Force you to think about it before clicking ok, you know, like elctroshock therapy.(I worked on rubber roofing a long time ago, we had these metal rods that held it down on the edges. Walk acrost the roof at the end of the day, shuffling tired feet, bend down to pick one up, ZAP. Anyways, shock therapy works. After a while, I was bruising my hands smacking the rod before I picked it up...)

Aeon, I went out and tested your AoE comment and haven't seen it happen that way yet. I tested it in crystal desert, southern shiverpeak, and UW/FoW/SF, and the highest I counted was 3, and that was only because they were bumping into each other. I found ways of cornering mobs so that they can't run, which allows for a higher number of hits, and combos if you have the items for fast casting to increase the number of hits (I.E. meteor storm>>>Meteor>>>firestorm combos...or echo'd Meteor's during an AoE to keep the mobs on the ground). Anyway, let me know where you've seen this and I'll check it out. I also checked outside of Ascalon with a low-level char and saw the same results with the gargoyles scattering...

I'm not sure I undertand you're check box idea on zoning whole parties (or selecting??). Can you clarify for me...I think I'm just dense on the idea hehehehe

I just thought for simplicity's sake that it would be easier to allow the party leader to port the whole group to a new zone (easier for implementation by Anet). The party wouldn't have any say in the matter, but if members in the party don't want to zone they can either drop out of the party and stay, or go back to another zone they prefer. I don't see anyway that this system can be abused, unless you get some annoying leader that is just jumping from one zone to the next, but that is easily fixed by dropping out of the party.